close, save, new session

[rosea.grammostola]

Hi,

Happy 2013!

I don't think it's a reliable workflow when the current session is saved
when you hit an other session to open. For very complex setups it's very
frustrating when one big app with a lot of connections just closes and
you hit accidentally on a other session in the non-session-manager GUI.
Even when you hit close, you could mean abort...

I think the chance that you make a mistake is far too big in this case.

Regards,
Dirk
/me starts reconnecting his whole session :(

[J. Liles]

On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 2:56 PM, rosea.grammostola <

Post by rosea.grammostola
Hi,
Happy 2013!
I don't think it's a reliable workflow when the current session is saved
when you hit an other session to open. For very complex setups it's very
frustrating when one big app with a lot of connections just closes and you
hit accidentally on a other session in the non-session-manager GUI. Even
when you hit close, you could mean abort...
I think the chance that you make a mistake is far too big in this case.
Regards,
Dirk
/me starts reconnecting his whole session :(

Are you proposing a solution? From what I gather, you would like all NSM
operations to be more difficult to trigger, correct?

[rosea.grammostola]

Post by J. Liles
On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 2:56 PM, rosea.grammostola
Hi,
Happy 2013!
I don't think it's a reliable workflow when the current session is
saved when you hit an other session to open. For very complex setups
it's very frustrating when one big app with a lot of connections
just closes and you hit accidentally on a other session in the
non-session-manager GUI. Even when you hit close, you could mean
abort...
I think the chance that you make a mistake is far too big in this case.
Regards,
Dirk
/me starts reconnecting his whole session :(
Are you proposing a solution? From what I gather, you would like all NSM
operations to be more difficult to trigger, correct?

Yes, atm it goes too fast and easy ...
Which is what you want, but without losing data...
At least I don't feel secure in NSM when I've a complex session atm.

In most programs you'll get an dialog box with a question if you really
want to close without saving.

Regards

[rosea.grammostola]

Post by J. Liles
Are you proposing a solution?

Right mouse knob for changing session instead of left knob.


In my experience the 'abort' knob is much more safe for me, and it might
be unexpected that this knob is showing me an message box.

When you hit save, you do it on purpose. I always look at patchage
first, if all looks good I save it. You know how easily an JACK app can
be spitted out without noticing it.
And most of the times I do abort to quit.

The close button feels unreliable to me. You hit close when you want to
quit. It's more vulnerable for human error imo. Maybe an message which
ask me here if I want to close without saving, is better.

Remove the close button, could be an option too. Then people have to
consciously save the session. Abort in red might be clear enough. Then
you don't show the message box.

[rosea.grammostola]

Post by rosea.grammostola

Post by J. Liles
Are you proposing a solution?

Remove the close button, could be an option too. Then people have to
consciously save the session. Abort in red might be clear enough. Then
you don't show the message box.

in this scenario you could make the save button green or yellow (or
blue, ...), like the abort button is red.

[rosea.grammostola]

Post by rosea.grammostola

Post by rosea.grammostola

Post by J. Liles
Are you proposing a solution?

Remove the close button, could be an option too. Then people have to
consciously save the session. Abort in red might be clear enough. Then
you don't show the message box.

in this scenario you could make the save button green or yellow (or
blue, ...), like the abort button is red.

You could also use a key + mouse button combination for 'dangerous'
actions, like Ctr + l-mouse.

Moreover I consider the 'New' button also as dangerous, at least at this
position in the GUI. Sometimes I did choose 'new' when I meant Add
Client, this switches to the new session.

Atm I think I don't like those functions which do autosave. Removing
that functionality makes the app more predictable and clear maybe.

\r

[J. Liles]

On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 1:56 AM, rosea.grammostola <

Post by rosea.grammostola

Post by rosea.grammostola

Post by rosea.grammostola

Post by J. Liles
Are you proposing a solution?

Remove the close button, could be an option too. Then people have to
consciously save the session. Abort in red might be clear enough. Then
you don't show the message box.

in this scenario you could make the save button green or yellow (or
blue, ...), like the abort button is red.

You could also use a key + mouse button combination for 'dangerous'
actions, like Ctr + l-mouse.
Moreover I consider the 'New' button also as dangerous, at least at this
position in the GUI. Sometimes I did choose 'new' when I meant Add Client,
this switches to the new session.
Atm I think I don't like those functions which do autosave. Removing that
functionality makes the app more predictable and clear maybe.
\r

I don't think giving the NSM GUI strange key + mouse combos is going to
improve the interface usability any. The reason for the autosaving is that
without it, hitting 'new' would go from being a reversible mistake (all you
have to do is switch back to the previous session, which was saved) to
being a loss of data.

[rosea.grammostola]

Post by J. Liles
On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 1:56 AM, rosea.grammostola
Are you proposing a solution?
Remove the close button, could be an option too. Then people
have to
consciously save the session. Abort in red might be clear
enough. Then
you don't show the message box.
in this scenario you could make the save button green or yellow (or
blue, ...), like the abort button is red.
You could also use a key + mouse button combination for 'dangerous'
actions, like Ctr + l-mouse.
Moreover I consider the 'New' button also as dangerous, at least at
this position in the GUI. Sometimes I did choose 'new' when I meant
Add Client, this switches to the new session.
Atm I think I don't like those functions which do autosave. Removing
that functionality makes the app more predictable and clear maybe.
\r
I don't think giving the NSM GUI strange key + mouse combos is going to
improve the interface usability any. The reason for the autosaving is
that without it, hitting 'new' would go from being a reversible mistake
(all you have to do is switch back to the previous session, which was
saved) to being a loss of data.

Sometimes saving does make you loosing data. For instance when
LinuxSampler got kicked out by JACK, you didn't notice and save made you
loose all the connections from LS to Non-mixer, which could be a lot. SO
if autosave is done on a moment when it shouldn't (by accident) it makes
NSM sensitive for human errors.

A snapshot function might solve the issue. A snapshot like you've in
Ardour which makes a sort of backup in a certain point of time, so you
can always go back to a certain session state.

An other solution might be a 'session lock' button, which locks all
functionality in the 'menu' except the save and new client button.

\r

[J. Liles]

On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 2:20 AM, rosea.grammostola <

Post by rosea.grammostola

Post by J. Liles
On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 1:56 AM, rosea.grammostola
Are you proposing a solution?
Remove the close button, could be an option too. Then people
have to
consciously save the session. Abort in red might be clear
enough. Then
you don't show the message box.
in this scenario you could make the save button green or yellow (or
blue, ...), like the abort button is red.
You could also use a key + mouse button combination for 'dangerous'
actions, like Ctr + l-mouse.
Moreover I consider the 'New' button also as dangerous, at least at
this position in the GUI. Sometimes I did choose 'new' when I meant
Add Client, this switches to the new session.
Atm I think I don't like those functions which do autosave. Removing
that functionality makes the app more predictable and clear maybe.
\r
I don't think giving the NSM GUI strange key + mouse combos is going to
improve the interface usability any. The reason for the autosaving is
that without it, hitting 'new' would go from being a reversible mistake
(all you have to do is switch back to the previous session, which was
saved) to being a loss of data.

Sometimes saving does make you loosing data. For instance when
LinuxSampler got kicked out by JACK, you didn't notice and save made you
loose all the connections from LS to Non-mixer, which could be a lot. SO if
autosave is done on a moment when it shouldn't (by accident) it makes NSM
sensitive for human errors.
A snapshot function might solve the issue. A snapshot like you've in
Ardour which makes a sort of backup in a certain point of time, so you can
always go back to a certain session state.
An other solution might be a 'session lock' button, which locks all
functionality in the 'menu' except the save and new client button.
\r

I see. I've definitely thought about snapshotting, but it's a complex issue
and all clients would have to support it to make it very useful. Keep in
mind that you're free to add another layer under NSM, such as a COW
filesystem or a git repo to achieve this. However, it sounds like your
issue is really with JACKPatch... JACKPatch could potentially be made
intelligent enough to avoid forgetting the connections of clients which die
unexpectedly (only forgetting the connections when broken via a connection
manager or by the user removing the client from a session).

[rosea.grammostola]

Post by J. Liles
On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 2:20 AM, rosea.grammostola
On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 1:56 AM, rosea.grammostola
Are you proposing a solution?
Remove the close button, could be an option too. Then people
have to
consciously save the session. Abort in red might be clear
enough. Then
you don't show the message box.
in this scenario you could make the save button green
or yellow (or
blue, ...), like the abort button is red.
You could also use a key + mouse button combination for 'dangerous'
actions, like Ctr + l-mouse.
Moreover I consider the 'New' button also as dangerous, at least at
this position in the GUI. Sometimes I did choose 'new' when I meant
Add Client, this switches to the new session.
Atm I think I don't like those functions which do autosave. Removing
that functionality makes the app more predictable and clear maybe.
\r
I don't think giving the NSM GUI strange key + mouse combos is going to
improve the interface usability any. The reason for the autosaving is
that without it, hitting 'new' would go from being a reversible mistake
(all you have to do is switch back to the previous session, which was
saved) to being a loss of data.
Sometimes saving does make you loosing data. For instance when
LinuxSampler got kicked out by JACK, you didn't notice and save made
you loose all the connections from LS to Non-mixer, which could be a
lot. SO if autosave is done on a moment when it shouldn't (by
accident) it makes NSM sensitive for human errors.
A snapshot function might solve the issue. A snapshot like you've in
Ardour which makes a sort of backup in a certain point of time, so
you can always go back to a certain session state.
An other solution might be a 'session lock' button, which locks all
functionality in the 'menu' except the save and new client button.
\r
I see. I've definitely thought about snapshotting, but it's a complex
issue and all clients would have to support it to make it very useful.
Keep in mind that you're free to add another layer under NSM, such as a
COW filesystem or a git repo to achieve this. However, it sounds like
your issue is really with JACKPatch... JACKPatch could potentially be
made intelligent enough to avoid forgetting the connections of clients
which die unexpectedly (only forgetting the connections when broken via
a connection manager or by the user removing the client from a session).

I can understand that a snapshot is complex.

I think Jackpatch is the main issue here indeed.
The problem is when the session is saved, but when you didn't realize
Linuxsampler or an other app has died or didn't launch.
So even if the jackpatch state is saved it might be nice if you could go
back to a previous jackpatch setting (snapshot).